Milk, Veal & Dairy Cows

"Like humans, all dairy cows must give birth in order to begin producing milk. Dairy cows are artificially impregnated while they are still lactating from their previous birthing, so their bodies are always producing milk. The calves that are born female are raised to replace exhausted dairy cows. The calves that are male are slaughtered and used for veal."

Regardless of where they live, all dairy cows must give birth in order to begin producing milk. Today, dairy cows are forced to have a calf every year. Like human beings, cows have a nine-month gestation period, and so giving birth every twelve months is physically demanding. The cows are also artificially re-impregnated while they are still lactating from their previous birthing, so their bodies are continually producing milk during their nine-month pregnancy.

With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day — ten times more than they would produce naturally. As a result, the cows' bodies are under constant stress, and they are at risk for numerous health problems.

Approximately half of the country's dairy cows suffer from mastitis, a bacterial infection of their udders. This is such a common and costly ailment that a dairy industry group, the National Mastitis Council, was formed specifically to combat the disease. Other diseases, such as Bovine Leukemia Virus, Bovine Immunodeficiency Virus, and Johne's disease (whose human counterpart is Crohn's disease) are also rampant on modern dairies, but they commonly go unnoticed because they are either difficult to detect or have a long incubation period.

A cow eating a normal grass diet could not produce milk at the abnormal levels expected on modern dairies, and so today's dairy cows must be given high energy feeds. The unnaturally rich diet causes metabolic disorders including ketosis, which can be fatal, and laminitis, which causes lameness.

Another dairy industry disease caused by intensive milk production is "Milk Fever." This ailment is caused by calcium deficiency, and it occurs when milk secretion depletes calcium faster than it can be replenished in the blood.

In a healthy environment, cows would live in excess of twenty-five years, but on modern dairies, they are slaughtered and made into ground beef after just three or four years. The abuse wreaked upon the bodies of dairy cows is so intense that the dairy industry also is a huge source of "downed animals" — animals who are so sick or injured that they are unable to walk even stand. Investigators have documented downed animals routinely being beaten, dragged, or pushed with bulldozers in attempts to move them to slaughter.

Although the dairy industry is familiar with the cows' health problems and suffering associated with intensive milk production, it continues to subject cows to even worse abuses in the name of increased profit. Bovine Growth Hormone (BGH), a synthetic hormone, is now being injected into cows to get them to produce even more milk. Besides adversely affecting the cows' health, BGH also increases birth defects in their calves.

(taken from )

This photo was taken inside a "milking parlor" where cows are milked and fed a high energy diet. Up until recently, this food contained the processed remains of other animals, which led to mad cow disease. Cattles eat only plant foods, but some humans thought they knew better.

The udder on this cow is so distended that she has to spread her legs apart, and she even defecates on her swollen udder because it extends so far to the rear. We also surmise that her pain is so great that she can't even lie down, as the other cow is doing. If farming causes animals to suffer, then we shouldn't be farming them.

Veal - The By-Product of the Dairy Industry

Calves born to dairy cows are separated from their mothers immediately after birth. The half that are born female are raised to replace older dairy cows in the milking herd. The other half of the calves are male, and because they will never produce milk, they are raised and slaughtered for veal.

The veal industry was created as a by-product of the dairy industry to take advantage of an abundant supply of unwanted male calves. Veal calves commonly live for eighteen to twenty weeks in wooden crates that are so small that they cannot turn around, stretch their legs, or even lie down comfortably. The calves are fed a liquid milk substitute, deficient in iron and fiber, which is designed to make the animals anemic, resulting in the light-colored flesh that is prized as veal. In addition to this high-priced veal, some calves are killed at just a few days old to be sold as low-grade 'bob' veal for products like frozen TV dinners.

(from )

These are downed calves at a stockyard where they were awaiting transport to slaughter. They are a testimony to the abomination of this farmed animal industry, and everyone who eats animals or their by-products contributes to this evil.

So... what are you gonna answer to your kid when he's gonna ask you:
"Mum... where does milk come from..?!?"

- Milk Sucks
- Milk Sucks - Find Out More
- Milk - Peta's Factsheet
- Veal - Peta's Factsheet
- Cows used for their milk
- Milk Myths
- Not Milk
- Dairy Cows are Tortured Cows
- No Milk Page
- No Veal
- Farm Sanctuary
- Story of a Downed Cow
- No Downers

Wary of Dairy?


Kelly said...

After reading this blog, I can tell whomever wrote it is extremley uneducated about the topic of the diary farming business. I am not a veterinarian, but I am in vet tech school and I happen to grow up on a dairy farm my whole life.
#1- Dairy farming is a business. As much as I truly love animals they are treated as business "appliances". This by any means does not mean that they are neglected or mistreated. Being that they are the source of farmers incomes, they are treated anything BUT bad. They are provided with top veterinary care, and the best dietary means.
#2- You should be ashamed for bashing farmers. My father and other diary farmers work their butts off to provide cheese, milk, and butter for the MILLIONS of consumers world wide. Farming is a necessity and without it NO-ONE would be in exsistance.
#3- Cows are not CONSTANTLY producing milk. Every dairy farm has a 3 month "drying" off period in which the cow rests the last three months of her pregnancy and is nothing but spoiled until it is time for her to give birth.
Therefore, cows are never constantly lactating....if you researched the subject and if you really knew something about it you would know that cows producing milk from the time they give birth until the time the die is bullshit.
#4- Artificial insemination is the correct terminology for breeding. This happens to be a good thing as well. Out in the "wild" some smaller cows that are bred with large bulls, may have very large calves and can ultimatley die during birth because the fetus is just too large. With artificial insemmination you can avoid this, and breed smaller hefers with smaller bull semen.
#5- Feed is extremely important, and although green lush grass is a treat to cows, if it is given to calf expectant cows this can cause hypocalcemia which can ultimatley kill them. Therefore the feeding of hay controls this (it's not evil it's safe for the cow).
#6- Diseases occur within all species, cow or not. Due to the constant veterinary care dairy farmers must provide for their herd, diseases are either easily treated or prevented.
#7-Production of milk does not provide a pathway to a slew of diseases. If anything, cows that produce milk EXPECT to be milked. If farmers didn't milk the cows, diseases and infections can occur more commonly.

Although mastitis and diseases do occur on dairy farms, and abuse by farmers (which I do not agree with at all, and is exremely unexceptable)dairy farming is a huge busines that provides economic growth, consumer happiness and supply, and animal care.

(and the picture of the jersey cow with the large udder is not due to man-kind. Jerseys are very prone to being small in stature and have naturally large udders. They naturally produce 13% of thier body weight...the highest percentage of any dairy cow, which causes the large udder).

You need to get some real education about this subject before you can even bash it.

GO Farmers!!! You make the world go round!

Anonymous said...

Hey can I use your picture of the cow infected with Mastitis for a school project?

Animal Voice said...

"Hey can I use your picture of the cow infected with Mastitis for a school project?"

That picture has been found through google search, it's not exclusive Animal Voice material, so i guess it's for public use (unless there's some copyright specifications).

In any case, all of the material (articles, pictures, videos etc.) here at Animal Voice, is free to be taken and used for spreading awareness on animal rights.
If you want to help promoting Animal Voice project, just add a link to this site on your page/blog/website etc.

Thank You*

Anonymous said...

I agree with Kelly and there is much more to say. As much as I don't think that Mega Dairies are a good place for cows and they are "Usually" much better of at a family farm this posting was wirtten by someone that has no knowledge of dairy farming and cows.
Another example is avout MILK FEVER taht can other in a number of other species including dogs.
And by the way that Jersey cow udder is a very nice udder.
Please people do your homework and don't believe everything you read.
If you want to learn go visit a nice family farm and spend a day working with the animals and learning about it.

cowboss said...

There's No Place Like This! -- Ontario Guantanamo

Hello all

Check out the Ontario song at.........

Got new lyics for a "cowboss version" --- from care2 -- Just need a You Tube band

There's no place like this

That I know, Ontario

No place no place

We torture our dairy cows

Just like Guantanamo

We feed our poultry and pigs arsenic

We import sh*t fed beef

Just cause our consumers don't care

Ontario Guantanamo

There's no place like this

Ontario Guantanamo

cowboss/09 ... End the "Guantanamo" for dairy cows

Anonymous said...

In reference to your quote under the Animal Voice heading that states "through me the dumb will speak"...the dumb has spoken and it is, as you put it, dumb.

As Kelly said, investigate before you spew the latest provided by ignorant organizations such as PETA.

danika said...

i agree with kelly, i work on a dairy farm and i also dont agree with what youve said, farmers get enough hassles from townies whove never even seen a cow let alone worked or lived on a farm and pass judment on half and unreliable resources. some cows get mistreated but every industre has its bad sheep and the other 95% of good farmers are disgusted by this. the jersey cow apart from being a big producer probably calved not long ago and has a swollen udder as all females get. i dont know where you got 50% of dairy cows having mastitis from? on our farm weve never had more than 6% througout the milking season. the bobby calves are being sold for meat but what would be better? do you propose that instead of feeding them everyday and keeping them in a warm barn untill they are sold and culled humainley that instead we keep every animal on the farm untill there is far to much stock for the farmer or farm to support? there wouldnt be enough food for the animals, the farmer couldnt afford to feed the extra animals so all the cows are hungry and then the farmers buissness goes under? and if this happened to everyone what do you think that would do for the economy and the price of dairy products? first choice is given for people to buy bobbys but obviusly the majority has to be sold to the meatworks also the cows arent all killed if they dont get pregnant than the best producers get given a year off, and a chance to get into calf the next year theres also nothing wrong with a.i what is wrong with trying to produce the best quality animal? with two healthy well recorded parents that calf has a better chance of being disease free and have a healthier longer life and also keeping better value than an un or half rcorded animal, you seriously have a lack of knowledge

Flechtenwelten said...

Thank you so much for your Blog and for this video ... I have no words ... Just repostet the link to your blog (and the video) in different groups, but I am so sad and sure that only a few people, if at all, will start to think about their consumption. I have no words ...

Anonymous said...

i agree 110% with what kelly said
you may have found places were treatment was poor part of the time. most of what is done is for the health of all the animals involved, mothers and calves alike.
in regards to your statements about calves in the video, they are born with out an immune system, yes they are at risk of getting sick and they may die before they can face the world, this is why they are removed form their mothers and placed in a safe isolated space and given good colostrum. next time you want to post something like this do your homework and find out what is really out there i can tell you that a happy cow is one that is getting milked out fully and mastitic cows are not milked for human consumption they are still milked out but this milk gets thrown away

Animal Voice said...

ok - lets make things straight a bit here cause now it's my turn to get a bit annoyed..

Read me good:

1st - the fact that i'm (still) posting comments that are of a different opinion than the one i personally have, should make the smart ones out there understand that i'm welcoming on this blog an open conversation.
Keep that in mind please when choosing offensive language, ok?

because if an open dialogue is not appreciated - then it's so easy to cancel items that might annoy me - make sense.

2nd - as specified in this post, the material has been cross posted from other sites - sources are listed in provided links.
So - give me a break with 'make your homework' kind of comments etc.
And at the same time i hope you can still see that i appreciate the different kind of information and point of views of you all.

We are all different and can't agree on everything.

I might be DUMB - as this anonymous person politely puts it - but i also don't give a total crap about being labelled 'dumb, stupid, uneducated.. " you can call me anything you want and i will still repeat you i don't care.


My ego doesn't give a damn about this. My goal is to spread awareness on the way animals are treated and through this new awareness, most probably compassion comes out, which is a very good start for helping the animals.

For me cows don't belong in farms or cages and are definitely not a commodity, so no matter the details of the way they are farmed, i still personally don't agree with that.

I'm not a vet, not a scientist, i didn't even finish my University course... but one thing i surely have and that thing no one can ever take away from me - that is a compassionate and courageous heart, and all i want is to see all living creatures happy.

Animal Voice said...

to Flechtenwelten - thank you so much for sharing out Animal Voice link! :o)

Kelly said...

I respect your personal opinion about the dairy farming business, and whether or not you think consuming milk is wrong. I am not here to tell you what you can agree/disagree with. BUT as for information that you posting, I do not believe it is right to post things that are false, and mislead viewers.

Anonymous said...

It is perfectly natural for animals to be breeding every year. If the young are to be born in the spring each year and there is a 9 month gestation period then that leaves 3 months from giving birth to be pregnant again so the next calf is born in the same season. this happens to provide the young with the best chance of survival in the wild.

Susan said...

Strangely, you have never explained why calves are taken away from mothers. I am Indian and breast fed my son. I know that mammal mamas make more nutritionally viable milk when suckling. A vacuum pump system over time decreases milk production. Any human woman who has tried to do this can attest to it. That is why dairy cows are pumped full of growth hormone. Calves are kept with their moms in India and only separated for a short period to milk the cow for the consumer or for sale. These cows are also allowed to eat their placenta. They live longer and happier and people still get the milk. In the USA there is no such thing as an animal loving dairy farmer. It is brutal at all levels. Kelly, no cow should have fecal matter on the udders ever. Also, you never explained the lack of care for the downed calves pictured. You are a sick and disgusting person and I pray you never get a job working with animals. Your family only supplies misery and pus filled sickness for money. Shame on you for encouraging the lies.

Susan said...

Oh, and, Kelly, I am a veterinarian. I have worked in over 7 countries with the World Health Orgaization as a family preventive medicine physician and domestic animal veterinarian in both rural and urban areas. And what vet tech school did you claim to be studying at? I am certain they would love to know your opinion on the hygienic conditions of milk production.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Kelly. I have lived on a Dairy farm all my life and the man I love is a dairy farm just like my father. Our cows are treated better than we are. We spend everything we make to insure that our cattle have the best vet treatment, feed, housing, pasturing and ect.

If we were to treat our animals inhumanely then they would not be producing to their best which would be bad for us. So even if we were cruel people, which we are not I am very fond of all our cows and calves, we could not afford to be.

Also I agree with the basic concept that animal cruelty needs to stop but I think people need to dig a little deep and see what is really going "down on the farm."

Anonymous said...

most milk that most people drink in the US comes from cows that are mistreated in all the ways described by Animal Voice. it's disgusting, and while there might be a few places that don't treat animals in this same way(s), Truth remains. humans don't actually need to drink cow/animal milk anyway --our biological system didn't develop to handle drinking milk beyond our first couple of years. more calcium to be had from green, leafy veggies, and more protein in beans or tofu (GMO-free, of course!).

Keepin it real said...

Totally agree that 'dairy farming is a business'. You can't run it as people did in the days of Little House on the Prarie! Farmers will do what they need to do to comply with standards and make money.
The way it is run is NOT loving and, Kelly, 'top vetinary care and best dietary means' does not mean a happy cow.
Simple fact - the cows produce milk for the calf. If we're taking the milk then its obviously not going to the calf.
I'm not putting the blame totally on farmers. We demand so much milk, cream, cheese, ice cream, yogurt and other milk products that there is no way a dairy farmer could supply this demand WITHOUT doing what they do.
If anyone is serious about this problem then they will stop drinking milk, using milk products and encourage others to do the same.

Anonymous said...

Funny how all the pro dairy farm comments are from dairy farmers... We call this a conflict of interests. Perhaps it didn't work this way on YOUR dairy farm. Im willing to concede this, but NO MATTER HOW well you boast that the animals were treated well, they are still made to act against their will and their nature. Here's a good test for all of you. Would you switch places with any of the animals that you "kept" on your farms. Of course not... its akin to imprisonment, its torture and its an abomination... oh and I hope one day Kelly suffers a bout of perspective. Im sure she would have NO idea what to do with herself. Finally, COW MILK ISNT GOOD FOR US... We are the only species to drink another animals milk... its wrong. So torture or not... its senseless at the very least.

Anonymous said...

So, I assume since you strive to protect all beings on this planet, you are totally pro-life and against voluntary human abortions? Animals don't have souls, by the way, but humans do from the moment of conception.

Anonymous said...

Hey you lets hear it for the farmers the people against the farmer on here has no idea what real work is, or what a clue on what makes the world go round. Go meat!!

Mel said...

I agree with everything Kelly said as well. I used to believe what the original poster stated as a "townie" before I took a Dairy Science and Industry class.
Unfortuneately, there will always be those "bad people" that treat others incorrectly, or unkindly. This happens in every field, and they are frowned upon by the rest of the industry. Just because one CEO screwed thousands of people out of pensions and jobs, doesn't mean that you should never work at a company again. Not ALL CEOs screw over their workers.
Dairymen generally treat their animals very well. It doesnt make sense fiscally not to. If cows dont have proper bedding,stall sizes, diet, and comfort they wont produce as much as they can. Therefore it is in the best interest of the farmer to treat his cows well to promote more milk production and thusly higher profits. Also,new technology allows farmers to keep even better track of cows health by means of testing Somatic Cell Counts to catch mastitis early, as well as microchips that are automatically read when a cows walks into a barn and records the activity level of that cow. If she is slower than normal they know something wrong and can check her for illness.
Green grass is the "ideal" for those that dont know about it if it were a staple of the ruminants diet. Green grass does not have enough fiber in it which doesnt allow a ruminants digestive track to function properly. An all grass diet wouldnt provide enough fiber, throwing off the rumen PH, and therefore killing off the digestive bacteria and wrecking havoc to the whole digestive system. Cows need high fiber diets to promote a healthy rumen PH and digestive system. Dried grasses like alfalfa hay are a common staple for dairy cows as they have high energy content needed to support their lactation. Cows are also usually given a vitamin/mineral mix in supplemental feed for good health. It is cheaper to preventatively treat an illness, than it is to treat a full blown disease. And it is in the better interest of the animals.
Calves do recieve colostrum, if they dont they wont live for more than a few weeks, and the dairyman will loose money. Again it's a win-win to make sure the calves are and stay healthy. Separating from Mom makes sure that baby will get all the nutrients he needs in a clean and pretty much sterile, quarantined, environment. Calves are fed milk until they start regularly eating solid foods, once they start eating solid food, only then are they taken off milk.
AI is another great advancement as other have pointed out. It allows for selective breeding to promote a healthier more disease free animal and helps eradicate horrible genetic defects.
The Jersey with the feces on her udder acutally has a very well bred udder. It is symetrical with a very good medial ligament attachement, which means she has a healthy udder that isnt going to cause her discomfort later. A poorly bred udder can hang all the way down to the cows hock, which is not comfortable. This is another trait that is being bettered by AI.
Cows poo everywhere, and on everything...I was at the barn the other day, and this cow was hanging out next to her herdmate, when her herdmate started to defecate on the other cows head! The recipient didnt even bother to move until there was a small pile which she then tried to flick off. Cows also defecate while they are laying down which then gets all over their rear end, legs, and tails. This is all by their own choice. Cows are not very clean animals, and it doesnt surprise me that this cow has feces on her. Before milking, all udders are wiped clean. If not, bacteria could get into the open teat and cause mastitis, which would take that cow out of the milking circuit and lower farmer profits.
Its fine if you were not the original writer, however since you posted the article it refelcts on you as well. I think it is necessary to know both sides of the argument in order to make an educated decision as to your own opinion, failure to do so makes you/the writer look ignorant.

Anonymous said...

firstly, while i am all against animal cruelty a few points need to be made as whoever wrote this has not done their research and is scaremongering.
Dairy cow mush have a minimum of a 8 week 'drying off period' where they are not milked and so do not produce it. We do this because they cannot produce milk and support a near term foetus at the same time - this will limit their chance of getting ketosis and acetonaemia.
Ketosis does not come from feeding animals too much concentrates (high energy food) in fact ketosis comes from starvation. Due to the nature of the bovine (ruminant) digestive tract, starvation causes them to produce compounds called ketone bodies (hence the name ketosis)which can cause a systemic acidosis.
The industry is fully aware ok 'milk fever' and has been for many years. Diets are often supplemented and if need be, calcium can be administered to the animal and she will recover in a very short time (the speed of recovery is so quick that it is said that cows 'walk off the needle!)
Artificial insemination is not a bad thing. Mounting by a bull can cause fractures of the pedal bones in the feet and nerve paralysis in the hind legs, spinal damage and other fractures. Cows can be AI'd to 'easy calving bulls' - semen from bull which we know from previous calvings will produce a calf that is not oversized and will be delivered easily.
As for bovine somatotrophin (growth hormone) this product is illegal in the UK and not used everywhere in the USA. It is also a natural product.
New laws are being / have been introduced for veal calves and we cannot keep them on fully slatted floors all the time. They must have a straw area and optimum cow comfort.
Every farm will implement a herd health scheme to make sure that their animals are being well looked after as if they are not they will be less productive. So if the cows are happy the farmer is happy!

Vrndavanlila dd (Dr Vrinda Baxi) said...

This Kelly has gone mad and is totally indifferent to a creature's emotions and feelings. "Dairy Farming" can be "a business" but the cows and calves are not "appliances". The moment one considers it a business, greed follows, and the moment greed comes, exploitation follows, and when exploitation comes, dishonesty follows. No wonder Kelly is in a denial mode. She is being dishonest in her write up.
I am glad that there is somebody who is sensitive to animal's pain. Thank you so much Mr. Blogger.

Anonymous said...

I personally don;t agree with factory farm animals or extreme methods of how diary farms produce milk.
But just because their are a few bad seeds, doesn't mean all farmers are like that. I live in the middle no where country. I grew up around farms. The cows I have seen and worked with lived in open fields, ate grass and also feed and had good vet care.
Yes, the dairy farms used the machines to get milk, but it doesn;t hurt the cow. They usually eat hay while its being done and their calfs are off playing in a field somewhere. And anyone who knows about breastfeeding. The more you nurse or even pump the more you produce. It really applies to any milk producing animal.
Again, I don't agree with the cruel ways of farming, but not all farms are like that.
And the matter of veal. I don't eat veal personally, because I find eating baby animals gross. I still eat meat, but careful never to touch veal or lamb. I just think the little guys need time to grow and enjoy life.
People should not bash each other for their beliefs in animals and food.
If want to vegan than go right ahead. But don't bash met eaters. Lots of animals eat other animals, so why can't humans?
And you shouldn't tease or bash vegans for their beliefs. There are genuine cruel farming out there. Not just with cows.
In the end, we all agree factory farming, crule methods used on animals are wrong.

Anonymous said...

To Kelly and those claiming to agree with Kelly, I'm unsure of exactly what point it is you are defending? Wading through the confused diatribe littered with arbitrary facts, irrelevant contradictions and angry exhortations of nothing much at all I was able to glean merely that:
1.She agrees with the point made on the blog that dairy cows ARE treated as commodities or 'business appliances' thus not accorded recognition as cogniscant beings but that this is apparently okay because they are fed and provided with veterinary care (whilst profitable). Well ...yes; you don't invest money on a car and then refuse to put out for petrol and maintenance. That would defeat the purpose of your investment in many ways. I'm sure the herd is appreciative. Less so down the track when they are being skinned alive(for the less fortunate among them).
2. I'm sure your family work hard to produce dairy products. Perhaps not quite as hard as the cows who produce more milk by a factor of ten than they would do without human intervention? Fifty percent of whom are also suffering chronic mastitis? etc. etc. insert desription of suffering here. Farming crops of some description is certainly necessary to feed the contemporary human population. Dairy not so much.
3. Cows are not constantly producing milk. They have a 3 month 'drying off period' in the latter stages of their many pregnancies. Obviously for biological reasons not induced by sympathy with the mother to be. Well colour me surprised! and they also sleep the lucky things so what are we complaining about? That well made point has roundly debunked that misrepresantation. Shame on you Animal Voice!
4. Yes; ... modern farming methods include artificial insemination.
6/7. Yes disease has the potential to occur within all species... funnily enough more so when exposed to the genetic engineering in question & conditions
designed to increase profits in factory farming.
If disease in a dairy herd is easily treated and prevented why does she acknowledge the truth that 50% of cows suffer from mastitis?
Presumably disease in the dairy cow population is an issue because this has the potential to spread to humans? If this is the case perhaps she should acknowledge here the use of antibiotics in the feed of dairy cows and calves in order to counteract infection brought about by non-ideal conditions/ physical stressors etc. This is a huge concern in terms of development of anitbiotic resistant strains of bacteria. Stating 'cows that prodcue milk expect to be milked' is ridiculous anthropomorphisation and tautology. Yes and if humans didn't engineer the unnatural levels of milk production that they do then there would be no need
to extract the milk. Or their calves could drink it. You know, the ones that were being hauled off to be left to die on the dirt? If given the choice of having the life of a dairy cow or calf and no life I would choose no life at all. A dignity not afforded to those animals shown in the video.
Second to last paragraph was most offensive of all - ie. essentially she believes if there is money in her pocket and she's enjoying an ice cream (& animal care; whatever that means, given she's just conceded disease and abuse are rife in the industry) this justifies the untold suffering of innumerable animals, simply because they belong to a species other than her. Not based on any material difference in their capacity to suffer.

samantha lamborn said...

You. only know what you are told.